RSV Starting Problem

[Nacho]

Hi there friends.

I have some kind of problem with my Venture that I cant solve by myself at the moment and wonder if with your help and ideas we can find the solution.

Yesterday I was going to have a nice riding day with Ytu and a couple of friends more. Everything was just perfect and the bike started as always at the first touch of the starting button.

I went to pick them up at the gas station where we made the appointment and just about 500 meters from that place my engine goes off and never started again.

Everything seems to work properly except that the engine does not start. All the fuses are OK, all connections seems to be OK and when I push the start button the starting engine works, but the bike engine never gets to run.

I didn't have much time to do more tests, but it seems to me that the problem could be the gas pump not sending gasoline to the carbs and cylinders or some electrical problem at the plugs wiring (plugs are new, changed them one month ago and drove about 500 km with them).

All the accessories work correctly. All the lights, bells and twistles are fine. The engine test when turning the key is just fine.

Could it be that the regulator or the rectifier are in bad condition?

Radiator had less water than it should have and level was a bit bellow the minimum line. Refilled it thinking that the bike was smart enough to protect herself from getting burned but the problem still persists.

Any ideas of what can I check before getting the bike to the dealer and pay big money?

Any help from anybody would be very appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Hasta la vista,

Nacho.

[johnjr]

So sorry to hear and see this Nacho.....bummer!!!

Just wonder.....vapor lock...did you open the gas filler cap to see if you might of had pressure ? If it is opened and you hear air flow then it might have been that???

[Falko]

sorry to hear that Nacho
good luck
and i hope you be back on the road soon...

ask the polish group from the Isny- Meeting why Johnjr. is suggesting that problem ;D

you know i ride a first gen. so i wont be much help in helping you with ideas

1) but i think you are right to check the fuel-pump that should be easy just remove the line after the pump and see what happens

2.) take out at least one sparkplug - put it back into the cap and hold it to the block while starting to see if there is a spark at all

3.) is the starter working at all ? you should hear that ... ?

4.) you may need a electric tester to see if there is a broken connection / cable on the way to the starter or the plugs

sorry that all i can think about at the moment

give Colin a call is maybe the best advice i can give you....

[Nacho]

Yes, John. I did open teh cap. We had that problem in several Ventures of our Spanish club during our trips, so I knew that could be an option. Went to it before opening fairings and taking the tank off (it was easier so went to it first).

But my Venture didn't have that problem in 125.000 kms and didn't have it this time either.

Called the dealer and told me to check if there is spark in the plugs as Falko says. Will do it today after lunch.

Will keep you updated, anyway.

Thanks anyway, big John and Falko for your ideas and nice words

Hasta la vista,

Nacho.

[roland]

Check also the connections of the intake boots and check them for cracks.

Hope You will find it out soon.

Greetings
Roland

[johnjr]

Ok, well some of the guys on the Vnet are suggesting the same things Nacho...so I guess the first thing to do is be sure you check all your electrical connections and go from there....battery, plugs wires etc......let us know please, we will do all we can to help you out before you spend to much money!!!!

[Nacho]

Well, the plug wires and plugs don't give any spark at all.

Also, that sound that always sounds when turning the key on (something like: rrrrrrrrrrrrrr) is gone.

The intake boots have had cracks almost since first year, but dealer always told that they were not too deep and to leave them there till they are too deep. Now if it was because of those boots, would it be so fast to loose the sparks? Remember that I drove about 20 km (12 miles) to get to my friends and that when I lost the power it was suddenly. I guess that if the cracks of the boots were too bad, I would have noticed slowly.

There is no problem with the tank vacuum (first thing I did was to open the cap and check the hoses (both).

Battery conections are OK, clean and tight.

All fuses are OK.

The bike cranks but doesn't start becuase there is no spark.

Battery reads 12.40 volts all the time and is not weak.

So, what next? Where does the spark come from? Where should I check now?

Sorry for my ignorance but I am a complete nerd when talking about technical issues.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Hasta la vista,

Nacho.

[Falko]

get an electric tester

1. go to the starter - check if starter gets power

if he gets, but dont make noise the coils may be gone or the starter relais is dead ( mmhhh if the relais is dead he wont get power i think ;-)) ) so you would get nearer to the problem ;-))

2. go to the cdi - check if this unit gets power after turning the key
check ingoing - check outcoming

start from those points to check the wiring - after starter and after cdi


just inform us after each step you did, remind pls each step , write it down ( first for the dealer - if you still have to go there in the end , second for our tech. knowledge data base - provide us with pics from places you put the electric tester to ! )

still i suggest to give colin a call - if you dont have his number i can provide you with... lemme know and a pm is on the way to you...

[Falko]

uuppsss forgot one point ! :

sometimes the sidestand switch can have a problem !!!

try to kick the sidestand severall times in and out

i dont know if you can shortcut the wiring for the sidestand somewhere - that should be shown in the shop manual for your bike...

on my bike i sometimes have this prob and i know i have to solve it in the future with a new sidestand switch...


another thing to check : donno what this is , and how it happens, but sometimes my bike just wont start -
then i put in first gear
take clutch -
roll her a bit ( 1-2 meter )
and let clutch go ,
then back in neutral and she starts

donno why - dont ask ! - maybe a more expierenced mechanic can give some thoughts about that ?

[johnjr]

The bike cranks but doesn't start because there is no spark

This says the juice isn't getting to the plugs...so check the items Falko has mentioned.....the sidestand switch is always a good place to look....plus the Stater.....which is inside the clutch!!!! Bad news....gonna require the dealer...but if you go to the Vnet and look in the tech section.....you will find info on that......but since you have 3 fingers, maybe the dealer is better Nacho....5 fingers is best!!!! ;D...Love you buddy...you need a friend close by who works for beer...like me and Roland and Falko!!!! ;D

[bunnie]

With my first RSV I had a broken bobine that is the part that give juice to the sparkplug.

But then it would still run on three cylinders

[johnjr]

Bunnie...you need to speak English..not Dutch!!!!! ..What the heck is a Bobine

[bunnie]

okay okay I had to look it up.

It is a coil in English: reactor consisting of a spiral of insulated wire that introduces inductance into a circuit.

[Nacho]

Well, decided to open the Manual and follow its instructions step by step.

Here is what it says:

[Falko]

yeah that looks nice

i hate such things...

good luck - and stay calm - dont hit the bike with hammers or other tools
she is a lady - always treat he rnice

maybe whisper in the air intake something like :

yeah baby - you are the best - the sweatest bike on the road
if you will start again i promise you lots of chrome and a washing and polishing every week

thats the last help i can suggest

( btw.: with my bike - that is working !!! sometimes !!! - you just have to believe .... )

[doc]

Hi Nacho
There's a clue in no "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" noise somewhere as that is the sound of your fuel pump.
With no pump and no spark it sounds like the ignition curcuit.
Try the fuse again, but this time do change it (swop it with another as they can look intact) if that doesn't do it have a look at the wiring into the back of the fuse holder and check one of the spade conectors hasn't dropped out or are fouled.

Thats my best guess for now

[Nacho]

I found the Emergency Stop Switch that the guys in USA suggested. It is right under a black piece of plastic on the front right side of the gas tank. Checked and it seems to be OK, tight and clean. What I don't really understand is how that switch can be an emergency switch. It was dam tight and I had to use a screw diver to loosen it.

Opened also the Kill Switch or what manual calls Engine Stop Switch. Didn't find anything wrong there and I assume it is OK as the bike cranks when the switch is on the ON position and it doesn't when it is in the OFF one.

Same thing happens with the Main Switch (where we put the key to start the bike). Everything works when the key is at the ON position, so if it was a problem with that switch, I guess the bike woudn't crank.

Fuses are all OK. Battery is also in good condition. Spark plugs are almost new from ine month ago and have driven with them not more than 500 miles without problems with them.

So now I have descarted items 1, 2, 3, 8 and 9 of the troubleshooting procedure of the manual.

Number 10 is Neutral Switch but I don't think it is bothering me, as the green light of the dash work when no gear is engaged and disapears when any gear is engaged. The same applys to the side stand. The bike does not crank when there is a gear engaged and the stand is open and it cranks when the stand is closed and the bike is in neutral. This means to me that the stand switch is working properly by not allowing the bike even to crank.

So, 1, 2, 3, 8, 9 and 10 are not my problem (I think).

Number 4 is Ignition spark gap. Didn't check them all, but I guess that there is no reason to have all the four of them broken at the same time and if there was only one working I guess that at least one cilinder would try to work. But this does not occur, so I don't think the gaps are my problem. Same thing happens with number 5, the spark plug gap resistance. I don't think there might be a reaso to have all the four down at the same time.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9 and 10 checked.

Numbers 6 and 7 are related to coils (ignition and pickup). But for the same reasons as above, I don't think that the coils can go down all at the same time and I think there is no one working.

This takes me to have from 1 to 10 check or at least not very probable to be the problem.

So this leaves me the last two points to check. The relay one I don't really know where to look at. I don't know what it is and I don't know where it is. Will try later to check the manual again, although it is in English and I have some troubles to understand what it means everything.

The wires is something that could be broken or damaged after all this time of riding in all kinds of wheater conditions. Don't know how to check all the wires (there might be thousands) but will try.

Is there anything that I am missing or not checking?

Could it be that the alternator is not working properly or is that only a charging thing wich is not my problem right now.

Where does the juice come from and why the gas pum is not working?

I think the clue has to be related to the lack of electricity somewhere that is not sending it to the coils and pump.

I don't know how to continue this problem that is driving me nuts.

Need some help or fresh ideas, please.

Thanks in advance.

Nacho.

[Nacho]

Called the dealer just a few minutes ago.

Told me to check number item number 7 (Pickup Coil Resistance) and meassure there.

He told me that if the meassure is OK there, my problem wil lbe the TCI, wich makes me feel real bad.

Now, from the drawing of the manual, I don't where the heck that coil resistance is. Anybody knows?

Thanks in advance.

Nacho.

[johnjr]

Nacho....each cylinder has a coil to go with it...can you find the diagram that locates them???

[Falko]

Nacho have you tryed my suggestion ?


and good luck again...
cause here my knowledge ends
all i can say is take that dam tester and test power everywhere
i still think its a broken cable

[bunnie]

I have put 17 pages of the main electrical pages from the clymer manual right here;
venturers.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=inforsv&action=display&thread=1146677459&page=1#1146677459

look at pages 297 and 292 (for fig. 3)

[TwoWheels]

Nacho,you were saying that not all the coils could break down at once,you would be surprised,my friends 2002 Audi TT had 3 coils broken at the same time.so it's just a matter of finding them,Good Luck.

[Nacho]

Thanks for the scans, Frank.

Here is a copy of the message that I just posted a few minutes ago at the American Forum.

Daveb said:

Nacho:At each coil there is a connector plug that has two wires connecting it into the system.At each coil connector plug ,there is a red wire with,I believe,a black tracer,paired off with an orange wire,a white wire,a yellow wire and a gray wire.The red wires with the black tracer are the ones we're interested in at this time.Back probe each R/B wire,or atleast one of them which ever is easiest to get at, with the key in the run positin to see if there is 12 volts,or as you've probably read in my posts "AVAILABLE VOLTAGE" LOL! there.If there is,then ya know the ignition switch and the rest of the switches tied into ihe system are working.Do that and report back with your findings.I believe you said that ya had no fire (spark) right??

Dave!!!

Thanks a lot for the advice, Dave.

I didn't have time yet to go too far into the problem (will try on weekend) but I think I am closer now to the problem.

See what happened today.

I only have one hour after lunch to play with bike and today I started to take some things apart to leave free way to make the meassurements you told me to do.

So, I took off the side covers of the battery, and the one in fron (the one that is in between the battery box and the rear cylinders.

Then I saw at least three switches that I wanted to check also (dealer told me to do it).

Didn't have the tester with me in that moment, but when playing with my hands inside that small and tight space, I heard the gas pump noise for only half a second. That gave me a clue that my problem may be something not tight properly, a cable broken or a bad conection somewhere. Tried again and the noise form the pum started again for another 0.5 seconds. The gas tank is not in its place so maybe the pump didn't work any longer because it didn't have gas to pump up.

I focused then on those 3 switches and saw that they are really dirty, specially one of them.

Tomorroy I will try to loosen them, clean them and conect them again. Before leaving today, I simply sprayed dielectric grease to see if tomorrow the thing has changed.

In the mean time, here is a few pictures that I took and some questions that I still have, because like I said before, I don't really know much about technical issues.

First. I assume that this is the gas pump, right?



Are these the coils everybody talk about?



Dealer told me to check the pickup coils. Are they the same ones?

Dave, are these the cables you were talking about? The picture does not show it very well, but that is the only place where I have found orange ones.



Now, the next pictures show the 3 switches that are almost under the water tank that have so much moisture around. These are the ones that I am gonna clean and check tomorrow.









Anyway. Thanks, as always for your atention and advices. This is why belonging to this club is always worth it. A beer barrel is ready and fresh here in Spain for the first one who finds the problem

Hasta la vista,

Nacho.

[doc]

Nacho before you start laying into the coils looking for a fault bear in mind it is impossible for all 4 coils to fail at the same time.
Like you say your fuel pump is out too, so it has to be something common to them all

Keep it simple at first.
Check all your conections are clean and tight and that the wires into them are not loose.
Kick stand cut out is the one I'd start with as it's the most exposed.
Do you have to hold in the clutch on these later bikes when starting? Check the sensor wires.
Round the fuse block and the wires down the loom.
Sometimes just putting a conector apart and putting it back is enough to scratch a clean path for the electrickery stuff.

I usualy tear small strips from 600 wet and dry and double it over to clean inside the female spade terminals (the males are easier to get to with emery board (those file boards women do thier nails with).

Good luck

[Pi-eF vum Elsass]

Hi Nacho, make a try with another CDI ( lended by a RSV of your club) just to cancel this possibility.

[johnjr]

Hey Pi-ef has a good idea there Nacho.......that will sure eliminate the most expensive item if it is OK!!!!

Wonder why I didn't think of that!!! Stinkin Frencies!!!! ;D ;D

[TwoWheels]

Retard comes to mind ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[johnjr]

Heyyy....I resemble that remark!!!! ;D............your time will come my English friend!!!!

[doc]

Is rudy english???

Is he right on this occasion??

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Nacho]

FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spent the complete weekend at home working on the bike and finally got the bike running strong and healthy again.

Will explain all the details later, now I'm a little bit busy.

Thanks to all, anyawy for all the good advices and ideas. I'm so proud to belong to this great group.

Hasta la vista,

Nacho.